For most of the Church’s history, in most Christian denominations and movements, women have been denied the privilege of serving as leaders. Just one or two New Testament verses, that do not seem to allow women to have a ministry which involves public speaking (1 Cor. 14:34) or which involves teaching a man (1 Tim. 2:12), are frequently cited as the reasons women cannot be leaders.[1] There are, however, several women mentioned in the New Testament who did function as church leaders. Even though these women are mentioned briefly, they do serve as valid biblical precedents which call into question the widespread and persistent belief that the Bible teaches that church leaders can only be men.
In Ephesians 4:11, Paul lists several kinds of ministers which Jesus Christ has given to the church:
He gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. His purpose was to equip God’s people for the work of serving and building up the body of Christ. Ephesians 4:11-12 (CEB) (cf. 1 Cor. 12:28-31).[2]
In this article, I use Paul’s list as a reference point and show that there was at least one woman in the New Testament who fulfilled each of these ministerial leadership roles.
Women as Apostles
Paul begins his list in Ephesians 4:11 with apostles. Apostles were people sent initially by Jesus (Mark 6:7; Gal. 1:1), and later by the church (Acts 13:1-3), to pioneer a new work which facilitated the spread of the gospel. In the New Testament, several people, apart from the Twelve, are mentioned as being apostles.[3] One of these is a woman—Junia.
Junia and Andronicus (who may have been husband and wife) were members of the church in Rome; they may even have been the founders of the church there. Paul sends greetings to them in Romans 16:7 and speaks warmly of them, mentioning that he is relatives of them (or fellow Jews), and that they had become Christians before he did. Andronicus and Junia had suffered persecution because of their faith and at some point had been fellow prisoners with Paul. Paul also states that Andronicus and Junia were “outstanding among the apostles”. This is a wonderful commendation coming from someone who was himself an outstanding apostle.[4]
Unfortunately, Junia’s impact as a precedent for female church leadership has been slight because many people have failed to realise that she was a woman. The feminine name “Junia” was not uncommon in antiquity, whereas the masculine name “Junias” is unheard of.[5] Nevertheless, in the 13th century, Aegidus of Rome took her name to be Junias. After him, others also believed Junia to have been a man. This is despite the fact that several early church fathers, such as Chrysostom, Origen, and Jerome, referred to her as being both female and an apostle.[6]
Junia was one of the first female apostles, but many more apostolic women, throughout the church’s history, have pioneered new works which have facilitated the spread of the gospel. [More about Junia here.]
Women as Prophets
Second on Paul’s list of ministers are prophets. With the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, the function of prophecy became more widespread than previously. On the day of Pentecost, Peter quoted from the prophet Joel and said:
And it will be in the last days,” says God, “that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy; your youth will see visions and your seniors will dream dreams. Even on both my male servants [ministers] and on my female servants [ministers], in those days, I will pour out my Spirit and they will prophesy. Acts 2:17-18.
Prophets were people who spoke for God. Their speech was inspired by the Holy Spirit and it may or may not have included foretelling. In the early church, prophets provided guidance (Acts 13:3-4; 16:6), instruction (1 Cor. 14:31), strengthening, encouragement, and comfort (1 Cor. 14:3). Paul considered the ability to prophesy as being the most desirable of the spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 14:1); and he regarded the ministry of prophets as important and influential. Paul lists prophesying and prophets before teaching and teachers in the lists of ministry gifts in Romans 12:6-8, 1 Corinthians 12:28-30, and Ephesians 4:11.
In Acts 21:9 we are told that Philip had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. Some argue that Philip’s daughters are not explicitly called “prophets” or “prophetesses” in the Greek text of Acts 21:9 (cf. Agabus who is clearly called a “prophet” in the next verse, Acts 21:10). However, this does not mean that the women were not recognised as prophets. The participle of “prophesy” is used to describe the women in Greek text of Acts 21:9. The participle is often used in the New Testament to give a more immediate sense of an action. “Prophesying” is what characterised the ongoing ministry of these women. Thus they were prophets.
Philip’s four daughters are barely mentioned in the New Testament, but they are mentioned several times in other early church writings. The fourth-century church historian Eusebius described these women as “mighty luminaries” and ranked them “among the first stage in the apostolic succession.”[7] Moreover, he regarded the ministry of Philip’s daughters as the benchmark for prophetic ministry in the early church. Quoting Miltiades, Eusebius compared them with other notable male and female prophets: Agabus (Acts 11:27-28; 21:10), Judas and Silas (Acts 15:22, 27, 32), the prophetess Ammia of the church in Philadelphia, and Quadratus of Athens.[8] By all accounts, Philip’s daughters were highly respected female prophets and leaders in the early church, as was Ammia. [More about Philip’s daughters here.]
Women as Evangelists
Third on the Ephesians 4:11 list are the evangelists. Evangelists were men and women who preached the gospel of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.[9] Euodia and Syntyche of Philippi were coworkers of Paul.[10] Paul wrote that these women “have struggled together with me in the ministry of the gospel (en tō euaggeliō sunēthlēsan moi)” (Phil. 4:2-3). This is similar to what Paul says about Timothy in the same letter: that he had served with him “in the gospel” (Phil. 2:22). Like Timothy, Euodia and Syntyche were involved in gospel work. This may well have involved ministering as evangelists [More about Euodia and Syntyche here.]
Another female minister esteemed by Paul was Phoebe. In Romans 16:1-2 Paul described Phoebe as both a diakonos and a prostatis. Kevin Giles writes:
The meaning of the last term has been much debated. In either its masculine or feminine form it means literally ‘one who stands before.’ This meaning is never lost whether it be translated leader, president, protector or patron . . . Its verbal form is proistanai (cf. Thess. 5:12; 1 Tim 5:17), a term used of male church leaders elsewhere in the New Testament.[11]
The term diakonos is typically used by Paul to refer to minister or agent with a sacred commission; however, in this one instance, where it is referring to a woman, the King James Version and some other English translations have unjustly translated diakonos as “servant.”[12] Phoebe was a minister or deacon, and a leader or patron, in the church at Cenchreae. Sadly, this fact is rarely acknowledged in most older English translations of Romans 16:1-2.
Many deacons in the apostolic and post-apostolic church made journeys during which they acted as agents and envoys of their church. And some were involved in preaching and teaching.[13] We know that Phoebe travelled to Rome as Paul’s envoy, but a later writer asserts that she travelled to other places too. Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-460 AD) wrote: “[Paul] opened the world to her and in every land and sea she is celebrated. For not only do the Romans and Greeks know her, but even all the barbarians. . .”[14] Phoebe may have travelled widely and proclaimed the gospel in foreign lands an evangelist. [More about Phoebe here.]
Women as Pastors and Teachers
Fourth on the list of ministers in Ephesians 4:11 are the pastor-teachers. The terms “pastors” and “teachers”, joined grammatically in the Greek of this verse, may reflect two aspects of the one role. Or the terms may be two different words for the same ministry. (There is little evidence of ministers being referred to as “pastors” in the very early church, but there is ample evidence of ministers being called “teachers”.) [More about the Greek grammar of Ephesians 4:11 is in a comment here.]
While the exact function of a pastor is not specified in the New Testament it certainly involved spiritual leadership. There are several women in the New Testament who functioned as pastor-teachers. Priscilla, another close friend and coworker of Paul, was one of them. Together with her husband Aquila, she taught the already learned and eloquent Apollos, who was himself a teacher, “the way of God” (i.e. theology) more accurately (Acts 18:24-26).
In the more reliable, earlier Greek manuscripts, Priscilla’s name appears first in four of the six mentions of this couple in the New Testament.[15] This may denote that Priscilla’s ministry was more prominent than her husband’s. It may also indicate that she had a higher social status than Aquila.[16] “It is well known that the early church attracted an unusual number of high status women . . .”[17] Some of these women, who lived in relatively spacious homes, hosted a congregation that met in their home.[18] As a prominent member of the congregation, the host would have functioned as a leader employing a ministry gift, perhaps the pastor-teacher gift. Priscilla and Aquila were active in ministry and hosted a church in their home at Ephesus (1 Cor. 16:19) and later at Rome (Rom 16:3-5) where they ministered as pastor-teachers. [More about Priscilla here.]
Kevin Giles writes:
Prisca [Priscilla] is not the only woman associated with house church leadership. A surprising number of women are mentioned in this role. . . . In Acts we see Mark’s mother providing a home for the Christians to assemble (Acts 12:12) and at Philippi we hear of believers meeting in the home of Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40). Writing to the Colossians, Paul greets “Nympha and the church in her house” (Col. 4:15). Perhaps Chloe is also the host of a home-church (1 Cor. 1:11), as may have been some of the other women Paul greets in the last chapter of Romans.[19]
The “chosen lady”, whom John addresses in his second letter, was a woman functioning as a house-church leader and pastor. In the Greek of 2 John, it is clear that at times John is addressing a single person (the lady), and that at other times he is referring to plural persons (her followers or her congregation). John refers to his followers, and hers, similarly, as “children” (2 John 1:1, 4, 13 cf. 3 John 1:4). Furthermore, the word “lady” (kuria) used in 2 John 1 & 5, is the female equivalent of “lord” (kurios). This lady was a woman with an elevated social position. Numerous ancient papyrus letters, as well as ancient Greek literature, show that kuria was a respectful way to address a woman.[20] The “chosen lady” was a person, a house-church leader and pastor. The “chosen lady” was not a church (i.e. congregation) as some have suggested. [More about the “chosen lady” here.]
Conclusion
Stanley Grenz notes that the gospel “radically altered the position of women, elevating them to a partnership with men unparalleled in first-century society.”[21] This is seen in the New Testament. The following list is of first-century women ministers and church leaders mentioned in the New Testament: Philip’s daughters (Acts 21:9), Priscilla (Acts 18:26; Rom. 16:3-5, etc.), Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2), Junia (Rom. 16:7), possibly Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11), Euodia and Syntyche (Phil. 4:2-3), Nympha (Col. 4:15), Apphia (Phlm. 2), “the chosen lady” (2 John 1), “the chosen sister” (2 John 13), and probably Lydia (Acts 16:40), etc.
The church as a whole has been very slow to embrace the New Testament ideal of equality and mutuality among people regardless of race and gender (Gal. 3:28). This is shown by the fact that the slave trade and slavery were only outlawed in the “Christian” nations of Great Britain and the United States of America in 1833 and 1865 respectively,[22] and by the fact that racial discrimination has only been declared both immoral and illegal in recent history. I am convinced that discrimination against church leaders on the basis of gender will also become a thing of the past, and that future generations will look at our present difficulties and debate on this subject with incredulity.
It would be wonderful if the Church as a whole would recognise that, according to the New Testament, women did function as ministers and leaders—as apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastor-teachers—and that they were respected and valued in these roles by such people as the apostle Paul. In short, it is biblical for a woman to be a church leader. Moreover, if we deny gifted women the opportunity to exercise their ministries, we reject some of the very people Jesus has appointed and given to his church. The church’s mission can only be enhanced and made more effective when gifted men and women minister together using their complementary skills and abilities. Men and women should be united in the cause of the gospel and in building up the body of Christ, as well as in equipping the people of God to reach the lost (Eph. 4:11-12).
Endnotes
[1] 1 Corinthians 14:34 and 1 Timothy 2:12 are discussed in articles here and here.
[2] In the Greek, there is no hint that Ephesians 4:11, or any other verse which speaks of spiritual gifts, including those of leadership and teaching, applies more to men than to women. On the contrary, every New Testament verse which speaks of spiritual gifts, manifestations, or ministries is completely free of any gender bias in the Greek. (Verses which mention spiritual ministry gift: Acts 2:17-18; Rom. 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 12:7-11 & 27-28; 1 Cor. 14:26-33; Eph. 4:11-12; Heb. 2:4; 1 Pet. 4:9-11.) More about Paul’s theology of ministry here.
[3] These apostles include Paul, Barnabas (Acts 14:14), Apollos (1 Cor. 1:12), Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25), Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7). Jesus is also called an apostle in Hebrews 3:1.
[4] In his Homilies on the Book of Romans, fourth-century church father Chrysostom preached favourably about Junia, and using Paul’s words, he acknowledged her as an outstanding female apostle.
[5] The masculinised name “Junias” does not appear in any early Greek inscription. The feminine name “Junia” however is found about 250 times. James D.G. Dunn writes:
Lampe 139-40, 147 indicates over 250 examples of “Junia,” none of Junias, as was taken for granted by the patristic commentators, and indeed up to the Middle Ages. The assumption that it must be male is a striking indictment of male presumption regarding the character and structure of earliest Christianity. . . We may firmly conclude, however, that one of the foundation apostles of Christianity was a woman and wife.
James D.G. Dunn, Romans 9-16 (Word Biblical Commentary, Vol 38B) (Dallas: Word, 1988), 894.
[6] “The earliest commentator on Romans 16:7 Origen of Alexandria (c.185-254/55) took the name Junia to be feminine, as did Jerome (340/50-419/20), Hatto of Vercelli (924-961), Theophylact (c.1050-c.1108), and Peter Abelard (1079-1142). In fact no commentator on the text until Aegidus of Rome (1245-1316) took the name to be masculine.”
Bernadette Brooten, “Junia . . . Outstanding among the Apostles (Romans 16:7)”, Women Priests: A Catholic Commentary on the Catholic Declaration, Arlene and Leonard Swidler (eds) (Paulist Press, 1979), 141-144, 141.
[7] Eusebius, History of the Church. 3.37.1
[8] Eusebius, History of the Church. 5.17.3
[9] Based on how the word is used in the New Testament, C.H. Dodd explains that the content of preaching (kerugma) in the New Testament was primarily concerned with the lordship and resurrection of Christ. Furthermore, Dodd defines preaching (kerugma) as “. . . the public proclamation of Christianity to the non-Christian world”. The Apostolic Preaching and Its Developments (Harper and Row, 1964), 261. The proclamation of Mary Magdalene, “I have seen the Lord”, may be regarded as an example of New Testament preaching (John 20:17-18).
[10] “Coworker” is Paul’s favourite ministry title. E.E. Ellis writes: “The designations most often given to Paul’s fellow workers are in descending order of frequency as follows: coworker (synergos), brother (adelphos) [or sister (adelphē) as in the cases of Phoebe and Apphia], minister (diakonos) and apostle (apostolos).”
E.E. Ellis, “Paul and his Coworkers”, Dictionary of Paul and His Letters, Gerald Hawthorne and Ralph Martin (eds) (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1993) 183.
[11] Kevin Giles, Patterns of Ministry Among the First Christians (Sydney: Collins Dove Publishers, 1992), 35.
[12] “All important modern translations of the Bible now restore the original language used by Paul . . . but somehow the illusions fostered by the King James falsifications remain common wisdom. Nevertheless, there is virtual consensus among historians of the early church as well as Biblical scholars that women held positions of honour and authority within early Christianity. . . .”
Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity (San Francisco: Harper Collins, 1997), 109.
[13] Ellis, writing specifically about Paul’s coworkers, states that diakonos “refers to workers with special activities in preaching and teaching.” E.E. Ellis, “Paul and his Coworkers,” 185. John N. Collins notes that a third of the 150 occurrences of diakonos and its cognates in the New Testament, the Apostolic Fathers and the Apologists “relate to the preaching of the word of God.” Collins, Diakonia: Reinterpreting the Ancient Sources (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1990), 63.
[14] Theodoret’s commentary on Romans 16:1-2:
Cenchreae is a large village of Corinth. It is worth admiring the strength of the preaching. In a short time not only the cities, but also the villages were filled with such piety. Such was the significance of the church at Cenchreae that it had a female deacon [i.e. minister], honorable and well known. Such was the wealth of her accomplishments that she was praised by the apostolic tongue… I think what [Paul] calls patronage (prostasia) is hospitality (philoxenia) and protection (kēdemonia). Praise is heaped upon her. It seems that she received him in her house for a little time, for it is clear that he stayed in Corinth. He opened the world to her and in every land and sea she is celebrated. For not only do the Romans and Greeks know her, but even all the barbarians.
Quoted by Kevin Madison and Carolyn Osiek, Ordained Women in the Early Church (Baltimore: The John Hopkins University Press, 2005), 16.
[15] Priscilla’s name appears first in Acts 18:18, 26; Romans 16:3 and 2 Timothy 4:19. In Paul’s list of greetings to members of the church at Rome given in the last chapter of Romans, a list that includes 26 named individuals, Priscilla is listed first (Rom. 16:3-5). First! This seems to indicate that Priscilla was a leader in the church at Rome.
[16] Luke, the author of Acts, was very careful in which order he placed names. This is seen in the shared ministry of Paul and Barnabas; whoever of the two was the most prominent in ministry, or the most recognised in any given situation, his name appears first.
[17] Stark, Rise of Christianity, 107.
[18] M. Mowczko, The First Century Church and the Ministry of Women (08.10.14)
<https://margmowczko.com/the-first-century-church-and-the-ministry-of-women/>
[19] Giles, Patterns of Ministry, 34-35
[20] M. Mowczko, Kuria “Lady” in Papyrus Letters (23.08.13)
<https://margmowczko.com/kuria-lady-in-papyrus-letters/>
[21] Stanley J. Grenz and Denise Muir Kjesbo, Women in the Church: A Biblical Theology of Women in Ministry (Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVaristy Press, 1995), 78.
[22] Advocates of slavery often used scripture to support their position. Slavery was abolished throughout most of the British Empire when the Slavery Abolition Act came into force in 1833. The United States abolished slavery in 1865 with the 13th Amendment to their Constitution.
© Margaret Mowczko 22.08.2008, revised 22.08.2015.
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Thanks Marg, that was fantastic. I’m looking forward to the article on 1 Tim 2:12 🙂
I was just interested in what it is you feel that the Woman’s role is in a Family. Does the bible not speak of the husband as the leader? I believe that both man and woman have different roles (NOT capabilities) within the church and household. However different they’re roles are, God views them as EQUALLY important.
Hi Lucy,
I have another (older) article simply entitled “Submission” which concentrates more on the husband and wife relationship. This may answer some of your questions.
I firmly believe that God’s ideal is that men and women lead together whether that is in the home, in the work-place or in church ministry.
Before the fall, God said that men AND women were to rule over his creation together. See Genesis 1:27-28. The concept of a man “ruling” his wife came as a consequence of sin: Genesis 3:16d! But Jesus came to deal with sin and its consequences.
I don’t believe that leadership is only confined to males. Some men are lousy at leadership and some women are fantastic at it.
We all have different talents and capabilities, different strengths and weaknesses and each marriage is unique. How each marriage works is something that each couple should work out together. Ultimately, for a Christian couple, Jesus is the ruler and leader of the marriage.
There is sooooo much more that I could say about this, but this will have to do for now.
Have a look at my article “Leading Together in the Home”.
Thank you for writing about women in the church. I can’t believe the controversy that arose in my church after me challenging the pastor’s idea that only men can be leaders in the church!
Hi Jen,
I can imagine. Some people have a very poor understanding of how the Christian community (i.e. the church) operated in the first few decades after Pentecost. Women ministers, and even leaders, were not rare in the church.
Jesus did deal with sin but that does not mean that Christians are immune from God’s Judgement on earth Today (we still experience painful child birth!) I think what you are saying could perhaps relate more to our life in heaven. Some males may be lousy leaders but some of our bosses (Ephesians 6:5-9) and governing authorities (Romans 13:1-9) are also lousy but God still requests that we must obey and serve as if serving the Lord because this is the will of God.
Hi Lucy,
I’m not thinking of heaven; I’m thinking of now. While the fulfillment of God’s Kingdom is in the future, as Christians, the Kingdom is within us already (luke 17:21). We should be living as Kingdom people now. I actually do believe that Christians are immune from God’s punitive Judgement – completely immune. See 1 John 4:16-18
We do live in an imperfect, “fallen” world and some of its consequences are inescapable, but that doesn’t mean we do nothing about pain and injustice and oppression. As God’s representatives we should be challenging these things and modelling a better way – a way of mutual regard, respect, submission and servanthood.
I fully don’t understand why there needs to be a “boss” in a healthy, Christian marriage. In more complex organisations there needs to be a leader to stop things turning into chaos, but if its only two people, why does there need to be a boss? Did you get a chance to read my article on submission? I am all for submission!!!
I think this emphasis on male leadership is out of proportion with the teaching of the whole Bible. There were MANY amazing, wise and courageous women leaders in Biblical times. [I think I’ll post their names soon.]
And Abigail actually went against her husband’s wishes and was commended for it. (Something that really confused me for ages when I was a girl!)
We give women pain-killers in labour if they want it, and some don’t. If you would like your husband to be the boss, that’s cool. In my marriage there is no boss and we are very happy. We work things out together.
BTW My labour was completely pain free with Michael.
Hey Marg,
Did you see ‘Compass’ last night? They were interviewing the Sydney Anglican dude… One of the matters they raised was his stand against women in leadership. They didn’t really go into depth, just to say he was against it… unlike the more traditional anglican churches who are actually embracing women leaders (as well as homosexual leaders…. although I know you don’t like those two being put in the same category)
Anyway…. thought of you when I watched it haha 🙂
ross
By the way…. interesting article 😉
Thanks Ross. 🙂
So are you coming to our “Women in Leadership” seminar on the 21st of November? (Details soon.)
Yeah, because women and homosexuals are not the same thing!!!! It’s a red herring! It’s like saying if we allow women to be church leaders then next we have to allow tax cheats or adulterers, etc, to be leaders.
Being a women is not a sin and being a women in leadership is not unscriptural.
Does the bible not speak of the husband as the leader?
No, the bible never speaks of the husband as the leader of the household. It only speaks of the husband being the head of the wife, and head does not mean leader. Many believe that the husband is spiritually responsible for the wife, which is never correct theologically. The husband for example cannot possibly be the head of his children. Many are led to believe (I used to be one of them) that wives must submit to the husband 24/7, but what if the husband is an abuser? Would God really decree that all wives submit to their husbands 24/7? Functional inequality is inequality in essence. To believe that wives are functionally unequal to their husbands, or sisters are functionally unequal to their brothers is sexism, no matter how you define it. The word “role ” is gender neutral until it has been unfairly used by christians to describe unequal treatment of men and women in Christ, and all of a sudden, gender based “role” becomes acceptable. Roles are changeable, not locked by gender, e.g. children becomes parents, students become teachers, and no-one is locked into a forever subordinate “role” based on an inaccurate interpretation of certain texts.
Cont’d from last comment: Men and women have different biological roles, but not unequal ministry roles. Not all men are gifted as pastors, just as not all women are gifted as pastors. But let those called by God, men or women, be free to serve without being restricted by their gender.
Hi Marg,
Why do we always discuss women in the NT in isolation from men? This disturbs me. For example, only 19 passages refer to a total of 17 women in Paul’s epistles. This works out to be only 18% of the people involved in Paul’s mission. Two thirds of those women, are found in chapter 16 of Romans in the greetings with very little information gleaned. Let me mention a few comments.
Junia- ‘episemoi en tois apostolos’ could be inclusive. That is, Junia and Andronicus were among the circle of apostles. It could also though be exclusive, meaning that the two were simply ‘well known among the apostles’ and were not apostles themselves.
I lean on the former yet what do we mean by ‘apostle’. Does that one reference decisively imply that the early church applied no restrictions on women? There are 4 types of ‘apostle’ in the NT; 1) the twelve (Matt 10:12) 2) the term is used for someone like Paul who had seen the Lord and been commissioned (1 Cor 1:1), 3) it could mean a person sent out to perform a certain task or convey a particular message (1 Cor 8:23. Phi 2:25) or 4) it may refer to an itinerant missionary (Acts 14:4, referring to Barnabas)
So what category does Junia fall into?
It is highgly unlikely that these two otherwise unknown people are said to stand out among the twelve (1) or Peter, James or Paul (2). The sense ‘messenger’ appears more likely (3), yet the phrase ‘outstanding among the apostles’ seems a little awkward applied to thsi cate. The meaning ‘travelling missionary’ is therefore the most likely especially in light of 1 Cor 9:5 (also Acts 14:4,1, 1 Cor 12:28, 1 Thess 2:7). In this case they were outstanding among the missionaries.
More to come.
Hi Mark,
“Why do we always discuss women in the NT in isolation from men?” Your question is a little vague. In fact most people discuss men in isolation from women, while others do not distinguish between men and women at all when discussing Christianity, etc. I have written about Paul and John in my Bible study notes. I have also written about Timothy and Epaphroditus here.
I choose to discuss women because, for centuries, women have been ignored, and dogma has been formulated that did not take into account women ministers. I don’t dispute your maths; most NT ministers were undoubtedly men. I just want to highlight the women that many people know nothing about.
I have written more about Junia here.
I don’t for one moment believe that Junia and Andronicus were counted among the Twelve. Andronicus and Junia are not well known, but so are some of the Twelve. Next to nothing is know about Matthias, who replaced Judas Iscariot. This does not mean that Matthias and some of the other original Twelve had insignificant apostolic ministries.
Apostle (which is derived from a Greek word) is identical in meaning to missionary (which is derived from a Latin word.) All of the apostles mentioned in the New Testament were missionaries. Both men and women continue to be missionaries, pioneering new Christians ministries and taking the gospel message into new territory.
“By all accounts, Philip’s daughters were highly respected prophets and leaders in the early church”
Here is the text
Act 21:8 “On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him.
Act 21:9 He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied.”
Look at the information we have, and look at your claim…hardly compatible. This is what Kostenberger saids in regards to this sort of hermeneutic…”the frequent, yet fallicious hermeneutical procedure of drawing simplistic conclusions from a designation applied to a given person…”
When I say “By all accounts . . . ” I include the extra-biblical accounts of Eusebius, who also quoted Papias, and I include the observations of E. Earle Ellis. I am not pretending that Papias (who was alive in the first century and knew some people mentioned in the Bible) is a biblical author, so your comment about poor hermeneutics doesn’t apply.
As mentioned in the article Eusebius described these women as “mighty luminaries” and ranked them “among the first stage in the apostolic succession.” Philip’s daughters were highly respected and they prophesied regularly. I stand by my statement that, “By all accounts, Philip’s daughters were highly respected prophets and leaders in the early church.”
I have more information on Philip’s daughters here.
Evangelists
“Euodia and Syntyche were women who were warmly regarded and respected as fellow-workers by Paul. He said that they “contended at my side for the cause of the gospel.”
First, they are not identified as ‘evangelists’.
Second, the same verb ‘synathleo’ (contended) is also used in Phil 1:27, the only other NT use of the verb. There in 1:27, it refers to the whole congregation which suggests that these two women had participated as part of the Church in supporting Paul. To have ‘contended’ with Paul is a broad designation and does not therefore mean they fulfilled the same role as Paul.
Third, internal evidence in Phil shows that the church supported Paul financially (1:5, 4:10; cf, 2 Cor 8-9, Rom 15:25-29) thus it is likely these two women participated in this.
Fourth, Paul singles out these two women to stop arguing which is highly embarrassing for a letter that is to be read out.
Therefore to claim that these two women were evangelists or even ‘leaders’ is overblown.
In reply to your third comment: Paul writes that Euodia and Syntyche contended together with him for the cause of the gospel, i.e. the euangelion. They were involved in gospel work – evangelistic work. The fact that Paul personally addresses Euodia and Syntyche personally reinforces the idea that these women had considerable influence in the Philippian church.
It is not at all unusual for two people in a congregation to have different views. However Paul does not actually say or even imply that these women were arguing. Nor does Paul reveal any sense of embarrassment in Php 4:2-3. You are reading these things into the text. Paul actually speaks very well of these women.
Furthermore, if you look at the preceding verses in Philippians, Paul was encouraging mature people to have the same view as himself – of reaching out for the goal spiritual perfection (Philippians 3:14-15). It could well be that Paul is carrying on this thought, and using very similar language, is simply saying, “I encourage Euodia and I encourage Syntyche to have the same thinking in the Lord . . . ” (Php 4:2).
It is true that Paul regarded the financial support of his ministry as true partnership koinonia with him in ministry, and that the Philippians (and Macedonians in general) were generous givers. However it is difficult to reconcile the word sunathleo with giving. Sunathleo is not used in Php 1:27 in the context of giving, but rather in the context of standing firm and striving together in unity. Euodia and Syntyche may not have fulfilled the same role as Paul (who was an apostle), but they certainly worked together with Paul in evangelistic work, and he clearly valued their ministry.
It could be that Euodia, Syntyche and Clement were leaders in the Philippian church; they were certainly ministers of some sort. More about these women here.
Apart from Philip (Acts 21:8), no one is mentioned as being an evangelist, even though many people, including Timothy (2 Tim 4:5), were involved in evangelistic work. [The word “evangelist” is only used 3 times in the New Testament. Ephesians 4:11 contains the word also.]
BTW One of my main ministries is sharing the gospel every week with mostly non-churched school children. Does that make me an evangelist? Many women in the Early Church were instrumental in spreading the gospel, and were even devoted to evangelism.
Here is an that looks at Paul’s language in Philippians 4:2 and at whether the women were arguing.
https://margmowczko.com/euodia-syntyche-philippians-quarrelling/
Pastor- teacher,
Here your analysis is typical. No where does the Bible instruct that Priscila was a pastor-teacher. Kostenberger saids…
“all that can be said is that Priscilla, together with and in the presence of her husband, and in the context of their home, helped to provide corrective instruction to a man, Apollos”
All your quotes of Giles etc are historical revisionism with no substatial facts from the Bible. This is not a hermeneutic that takes the doctrine of Bible innerancy seriously (especially Giles). It brings one’s own agenda into the text and postulates and guesses beyond what the scripture teaches.
For example, here is what you say…
“As a prominent member of the congregation, the host would have functioned as a leader employing a ministry gift – most probably the pastor-teacher gift.”
and i ask, where does the Bible confirm this? You provide proof in footnote 21…
“It is currently estimated that there are approximately 50,000 house churches in China. 80% of these are run by women.”
And i respond…there are plenty of western churches ordaining homosexuals…doesnt’t make it right. Nor does the fact that women now run house churches, prove your point. Honestly, it shows simple manipulation of Biblical evidence- this saddens me.
Nowhere in the New Testament is anyone, man or woman, named as a pastor-teacher. That does not mean that there are no people in the New Testament who were pastor-teachers. I think the chosen lady in 2 John also was a pastor-teacher.
The Greek does not specify that Priscilla and Aquila taught Apollos in their home. The verb proslambanō in Acts 18:26 is the same verb in Mark 8:32 where Peter took Jesus aside. This verb is used in a variety of ways and can mean: “to take to oneself, assume, take as a companion or associate … to take food … to receive kindly or hospitably, admit to one’s own society and friendship …” (Perschbacher 1990:354)
Priscilla and Aquila might have invited Apollos into their home. They hosted and undoubtedly led a house church from their home in Ephesus (Acts 18:19) and later in Rome (1 Cor 16:19). If they did invite Apollos into their home maybe their teaching on baptism was part of a church meeting.
Furthermore Priscilla and Aquila did not just help to provide corrective instruction to Apollos. (This sounds rather lame). Priscilla and Aquila explained to Apollos the Way of God more accurately, including the doctrine of Christian baptism. This is especially significant as Apollos was himself an eloquent and educated man. I have written more about Priscilla here.
I hardly think that footnote 21 can be thought of as proof! It is just a bit of extra, and I think interesting, information. The Catholic church actually have even more impressive numbers than what I have quoted.
I have not manipulated Biblical evidence. I have provided extra evidence and information. But I have not misquoted what the Bible says.
So, just what is your problem with women being church leaders?
Final point,
The passages on men/women roles are rooted in creation (1 Tim 2:13-14, 1 Cor 11:2-10, Eph 5:22ff). All these passages refer to scripture pre-fall, thus before sin. Therefore biblical manhood and womanhood is rooted in God’s good creation. Egals are messing with God’s creation plans.
Slavery on the other hand was never instituted by God, nor supported in such a way. It is a red-herring to argue this way. One could equally argue the egal= homosexual argument.
Ironically, the whole feminist movement has pushed women away from the value and beauty of raising children, which in effect is damaging both children and women. I fear that future generations will suffer more because of the current situation. Why are devaluing the role of mother and wife, both of which are God’s ordained plans. I fear our generation will be judged severely for the manipulation of the text that keeps occuring. Egals need to re-think the damage they are doing to Biblical authority, the church, the home and society.
In reply to your fifth comment: I VERY much value my roles of being a wife and a mother. I agree that there are dangers in devaluing these roles! I advocate that mothers (or in some cases, fathers) stay at home with their children when the children are young. Parenthood is a huge responsibility and a joy!
Having said that, the role of motherhood is not mentioned until after the fall. Not that I think that motherhood is negative, far from it.
I just don’t think that you can say that motherhood, or in fact any role is stated or implied in the creation accounts, apart from the role stated in Genesis 1:26-28: both men and women were commissioned by God to rule over his creation. I have more on the created order here.
I am concerned that you mention 1 Corinthians 11:2-10, but not the verses after. Verses 2-10 are the first half of a chiasm, the following verses (1 Corinthians 11:11-16) should not be left out of any reading of this passage. More on this here.
Also, I do not think being submissive is a role. All Christians are to be submissive–cooperative, deferential and loyal–towards oneanother (Eph 5:21-22).
I only bring up slavery because it is so clearly not part of God’s ideal plan for humanity, and yet it took the Christian church ages to realise this. Similarly I do not believe that emphasising unilateral submission or restricting roles of women to be part of God’s ideal plan for humanity.
Thanks for your comments, Mark. 🙂
I know these are ancient posts…
But Mark, Marg has countered all your view points, what is your response?
Yes nowhere in Bible does it say Priscilla and Nympha are pastors, but they most probably are! Just use common sense. There are so many of them in the NT! If they are all running some insignificant roles, or bakery ministry, or widow ministry, things that don’t have much to do with Paul, then why did Paul get so many female women ministry friends? Sadly in today’s America, if any good faith bona fide evangelical pastor were to write a letter to another, he wouldn’t be able to mention so many women ministry leaders as Paul did…because we don’t have this many.
You referred to the creation order. I believe the creation order only applies to a husband and his wife, not all women and all men. But I believe generally men were created more for the leading roles (this is a creation reality thing, not an order thing). And for many natural and practical reasons most women are not fit for the leading role. However, I oppose the absolute ban on women leaders. An absolute ban is not scriptural.
Btw, do you actually tell the women participants of your church to totally be quiet from 10:30 am Sunday morning to 12:15 pm ish? Do you tell them it is shameful for them to make any sound once they step into the church door? If you don’t, then you are not obeying the Scripture you thought you believe in. Then you really are not so different with the feminists that you oppose. To be honest, I have not known of any person or church in the world today that have totally applied 1 Cor 14:34-35. So let no one boasts that they got this issue right.
Either way, I wanted to see your response to Marg’s correction on your previous arguments but I didn’t see any. But in turn you started to mention feminist movement, women leaving their home, etc., which are totally unrelated to what we are talking about here.
I would say the only good argument for preferring men over women in taking church leadership is that, once Nympha or Lydia’s home churches grew bigger, and there were enough qualified men to take leadership positions, then I agree for many reasons and in many cases men are more suitable than women to lead. But, I would say in the current time, we are (or soon will be) going back to the early church’s urgent and crisis like situation, where faithful and capable believers were scarce to find. In this case, both man and woman, who are faithful and gifted, should rise up.
Thank you so much for such concise and strong information you send, in relation to women’s role in leadership. I have benefited much from it and hope you will send related materials that you think are helpful to enhance my knowledge on this area.
blessings,
yours in Christ,
Abera
Hi Abera,
I’m glad that you found this article useful. If you search this site and look at the “related articles” (at the bottom of most posts) you will find many articles with related material.
If you have any questions, I would be happy to try and answer them.
Marg
THE ANSWER AND THE KEY TO THE DEBATE IS HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!Your article is mostly correct! There are two categories of “leadership”. 1=the 4 fold ministry gifts that JESUS GIVES. 2= The two fold “offices” of the church overseer/elder/shepherd and deacon/servant that MANKIND SEEKS AND APPOINTS. Jesus appoints men and women with giftings to be used throughout the universal church=4 fold ministers that can go from church to church based off of respect and good fruit used to edify and bring maturity. NEXT>>>1 timothy= Men seek to be overseers/bishop and are appointed by church to have authority and ministry ONLY AT ONE LOCAL CHURCH only a man, has to meet qualifications. Men or women seek to be deacon/servants and are chosen by church to serve ONLY AT ONE LOCAL CHURCH. Check book of acts and epistles all through this is the pattern. Overseers/bishops are only men just like scripture says. women can be deaconess just like scripture says.It all reads easy and makes perfect sense once you understand what I just wrote. The local church is the household of God it is self governing and autonomous that is why only Men are the “leaders” because the family structure is the kingdom structure[leading is not ruling but giving of yourself like Jesus] Elder is same as overseer, even Paul was not an elder/overseer because he wasn’t married and therefore didn’t qualify to be leader of a local church.Peter did qualify and is called elder, John is also called elder. People can be 4 fold ministers AND elders but being an Apostle Prophet Evan. or Pastor/Teacher DOES NOT make you an appointed overseer or deacon of a local church. Also one man NEVER RULES a local church. A group of elders with EQUAL AUTHORITY leads a church [check it in bible, we really err by appointing one man over a church or a board of directors] Please deeply search everything I wrote in THE BIBLE, Don’t listen to mans leadership philosophies, Jesus and Paul gave us the Info let’s get it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your comment Zeb. I agree with much of what you’ve written, but not all of it. I think it’s interesting that you think that Paul, as an unmarried man, would not have qualified as an overseer/elder. Using your interpretation of Paul’s qualifications for overseers in 1 Timothy 3:1-6, that means Jesus would not have qualified either.
To Marg…really God gave us a government model for the church that is beautiful and natural. Overseers=very hard,lots of responsibility, true leaders, not fame seeking ego men. Deacons/servants= hard working well,…servants to the body. The church should be family structured not hierarchical. Just like the tribes of the world, elders lead with wisdom seeking wellness and servants serve. Imagine if we would have taken the true structure to the world not an empire model. Jesus does not qualify to be an overseer of a local church because he is the head of the body. Just like Jesus does not qualify to be the dad in my earthly family . We do not preach ourselves as Lord [the leader the boss] but Jesus as Lord and ourselves as slaves for you sake. God definitely chooses women to be Ephesian 4:11 gifts to the church. Just realize God chooses those positions [ and they are recognized and accepted by various churches by their fruit] but we seek to be leaders of local churches [1 tim] We need to get rid of little boys trying to be the boss/lord, sole leader, building empires and get back to the strong family models where wise elders lead and we serve one another in love.
Zeb, I really do agree with much of this comment also. 🙂
Going back to your first comment: From early church writings we see that apostles and prophets (and probably evangelists) had travelling ministries, and that elders/overseers cared for local congregations. We see that elders/overseers were somewhat like modern-day senior pastors who, among other things, taught. (Being able to teach is the only qualification in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 that is not a moral qualification.) And we see that deacons were involved in various other ministries in the church community. Some of these ministries included pastoring. That is to say, some elders and deacons functioned as pastors.
I believe that Chloe, Nympha, Euodia and Syntyche, the Chosen Lady and other women were house church leaders. That is, these women were elders and pastors of small local congregations. (Almost all early churches met as house churches in the first 200 years.)
Zeb, I have been studying Greek for several years now, and my everyday New Testament is the Greek New Testament (USB). The one-woman-man qualification in 1 Tim 3:2 is a moral qualification. It is a Greek idiom that was used in ancient times to mean “married only once”. I have written about this here: https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/pauls-qualifications-for-church-leaders/
You may be interested in this also: https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/women-pastors-in-the-new-testament/
I think it is unwise to prohibit godly men who are obvious leaders, men who have similarities to Paul and Jesus, just because they are single. (I did not mean to use Paul and Jesus as actual, literal examples in my previous comment.) I also think it is unwise to prohibit godly and capable women from being elders/overseers because of a faulty understanding of the one-woman-man idiom.
Furthermore, I cannot find in the Bible that it says that fathers, and not father and mothers, should be the leaders of the house. The Bible never says that men only should be the leaders of the home. I have written about this also. https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/kephale-and-male-headship-in-pauls-letters/ and:
https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/leading-together-in-the-home/
But I think we agree on most things. 🙂
I have just come across your posts on women in leadership as evidenced in the New Testament. Thank you for the scholarship and the time invested. What is shocking to me is what seems like the ramped-up efforts these days (via the new patriarchal/complementarianism movements) to limit women’s freedom in the church. Perhaps the most shocking is the Quiverfull movement. The TLC Duggar family program has certainly spotlighted this sect and I think has alerted many as to this relatively new wrinkle on the cult scene. One thing that always strikes me is this: if, as some patriarchalists teach (by implication), women are to continue to suffer the consequences of Eve’s curse (husband lording it over her, etc.), why don’t we ever hear how the church is to also mandate/enforce the continuation of Adam’s curse? But of course, a rhetorical question…
blessings,
Phyllis
Hi Phyllis,
In Australia we don’t have have a quiverful movement. This seems to be an American thing. Even homeschooling is uncommon and seen as unusual. Also, most Australians have never heard of the Duggars and hopefully never will.
Christian patriarchy is different in Australia. The most vocal hierarchical complementarians here are the Sydney Anglicans. But they are mild compared with complementarians in other countries. For instance, women do speak, and can read the Scriptures aloud, in their services. But in some Sydney Anglican churches women cannot preach the “Sunday sermon”.
So glad to be living in Australia! But we still have a way to before true equality and a casteless Christianity is the norm in our churches.
I love your writing style. 🙂
Thank you. I just started my blog in March. I enjoy writing for publishers, but there are so many restrictions. It’s a pleasure to just write to write, whatever the word count, whatever the topic.
I have been on your site before, but forgot you are in Australia! It’s easy to become “homeland-centric.” So glad to hear things aren’t quite as bad for Christian women “down there.” It must be somewhat shocking to learn that here in “progressive America” the situation is actually worse. I spent twelve years of my teaching career teaching in an alt ed facility serving homeschooling families and began to become familiar with some of the extremes of the patriarchy movement. I knew it was something I wanted to write about. So, it’s great to be able to reference some of the work of those of you who have been doing the more scholarly writing.
blessings,
Phyllis
I have a question… the author Paul, of Timothy, is the same Paul who denied Jesus 3 times, as the roosters crowed, when asked if he knew Jesus by both men and women? Now Hear me out here…(this is, after all, part of the context and something to consider )
(…This story in the New Testament about Paul nearly always makes me think he preferred people’s praise over Gods, since this is mentioned previously that it is better to live by God than by Men’s praise, those who die living righteously by God will be praised, those who die living in Men’s praise not so much). This disciple, though, of course, is the Paul who started the Catholic church later… (Yay!)
So, in short, this story about Paul denying Jesus in the NT makes me think he may be influenced by cultural wants of the people around him… he may flex to that in this passage too, also, as far as I know, Jesus never said anything like the phrase Paul wrote in Timothy, which is used and referred to frequently in the arguments against women in leadership. Most importantly, Paul writes “I” (meaning Paul’s opinion) not “He the Father” or “Jesus (He) says,” so this makes me think this could be Paul’s specific opinion. Considering that there are only two places that are pointed to the most by the dissenting opinion, passages in Timothy and Corinthians, 2 books, in light of the fact there are 66 books in the Bible, including Jesus’s own examples of life, action, and words in the NT, this makes me think that is not a lot. Actually very few… You’d think there would be more than that, right, especially on a subject as important as this? Considering this context, I’m cautious with these phrases used against women in church leadership, especially, since Paul wrote —-> “I” <— believe this and not "He" or "the Father" or "the Son."
That was my 2 cents on the subject and it's context. I appreciate and support your blog post, thank you for what you do! God Bless and good health!
Thanks for your comment, Julie. However, it was Peter who denied Jesus three times, not Paul. Paul was not one of Jesus’ original twelve disciples.
And neither Paul nor Peter started the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church started later even though they claim that Peter was Rome’s first bishop (or something similar.)
I agree that there is really only one, or possibly two, short passages in the entire Bible that seem to disqualify women from a speaking ministry, yet other verses indicate that Paul had no problem with women who prophesied and prayed aloud in church meetings.
Paul loved and valued women and several women were his colleagues in ministry. I have a great respect for Paul and consider his letters as having Scriptural authority.
I have several articles about “Paul and Women” here.
Thank you very much!! All these explanations are very useful for my study. I want to know about women’s leadership, and I find here what I need.
I’m so glad to hear that this information is useful for you, Myriam.
“The head of man is Christ,the head of women is man,the head of Christ is God” the word of God says plainly. Eve sin? To want to be over man and smart as God. Don’t be a women as such as her. Be the true daughter of Wisdom if you teach your women to be quiet, modest and submissive to their men’s authorities, as the bible commands. The order of creation and Nature. Peace and harmony will be the reward. And truth will prevail.
Robert,
Your comment is not directly related to the article, which is about ministry. If you read any of my other posts you will discover that I have no intention of having authority over a man, or any other capable adult for that matter.
I discuss 1 Corinthians 11:3 in this article if you are interested: https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/the-chiasm-in-1-corinthians-11_2-16/
The word does not plainly say that Eve wanted to be over the man. In fact, it doesn’t mention anything like this whatsoever.
Thanks for your reply. Means a lot. Subject of women leaders in church service was my aim to comment on. Though the bible commands not for women to lead over,or teach men,it commands for women to teach women, children, and shows many examples that women did take leader roles of men,hesitantly because of the lack of men to step up to their role in cowardness. Debra being my favorite. Preist,overseers, pastors always biblically taught to be men. In today’s culture of equality, we except role less theology.and families paid the price.I believe,the men most at fault. I love and respect women dearly.co dependant to them.long to protect them. After ‘re reading my comment, I see that it appears I was accusing you. I meant no disrespect.I meant it in general to everyone. I don’t know you or any of who you are in Christ. I will follow up on the info you sent me of your insights and writings to better know you more. Wisdom in proverbs is a women. I’m eager to give all to know her more. Please forgive me.
Hi Robert,
I appreciate your heart, and I hear your respect for women, but I disagree with some of your statements.
In 1 Timothy 2:12 Paul says he is not permitting a woman to teach or authentein (“have authority over”?) a man. Paul uses the singular “woman” and “man”, not the plural “women” and “men”, so I think we should too when quoting or speaking about the verse.
I agree that there are numerous Bible verse where women exercised some kind of authority or some kind of teaching ministry, but there is no indication that they did this because there was a lack of men. In Deborah’s case the Bible states there were male leaders, princes, and warriors (Judges 4:6, 14-20; Judges 5:2,9,13, 15). Nevertheless Deborah was God’s appointed leader of Israel.
In Israel there was a place for prophetic women leaders. Before the Babylonian exile, the role of many prophets was usually more influential than the role of the priests. The priests were responsible for seeing to the regular sacrifices and rituals within the Tabernacle and Temple, but the prophets and prophetesses spoke to the nation, to other important individuals, or (before the monarchy) they were the leaders themselves (e.g. the prophets Moses, Samuel, Deborah).
During the days of Israel’s monarchy, prophets and prophetesses such as Huldah, advised kings. Abigail advised David and prophesied to him just before he became king. David accepted her prophecy and her words are recorded in scripture. Her speech is one of the longest speeches of a woman recorded in the Old Testament.
Other godly women have had their words recorded in scripture where they have the authority of scripture and continue to teach men and women. The inspired songs, prayers, praises and teachings of Miriam (Exo 15:20-21), Deborah (Judges 5:1ff), Hannah (1 Sam 2:1ff), Abigail (1 Sam 25:28-31), King Lemuel’s Mother (Prov 31:1-9), Mary (Luke 1:46ff) and Elizabeth (Luke 1:41ff) are considered prophetic and are included in Scripture.
Men such as Barak, King David, King Josiah’s all-male delegation (which included the high priest), King Lemuel, and Apollos respected and accepted teaching of women. I think we need to be careful not to let one verse (1 Timothy 2:12) overide what numerous other verses show us about godly women and ministry. And we should be careful not to misquote or misunderstand 1 Timothy 2:12.
The very early churches often met in homes and their meetings were very different to church meetings today. Some of these church communities, which were usually small, met in homes which were owned by women such as Nympha, Lydia, and Priscilla with her husband Aquila. There is no reason to think that women did not minister in these meetings (1 Cor 11:5; 14:26). There is also no reason to think that these women did not function as overseers or pastors. Interestingly, no man or woman, other than Jesus, is called a priest, overseer or pastor in the New Testament.
Rather than looking at what has always been taught, or at today’s culture, we should be looking more carefully at what the scriptures say.
Paul’s favourite term for a minister of the gospel was “co-worker”. He used this word more frequently than any other ministry title or term. He used it for men and for women such as Priscilla, Euodia and Syntyche. I have more about the first century church and the ministry of women here: https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/the-first-century-church-and-the-ministry-of-women/
One thing I don’t understand is why does having a church in your home mean you are a leader in that church? What if you were a new believer and just happened to have the biggest home? My understanding is that the early churches were not led by one person but by a group of elders. So if these women were leaders, would they have been one elder among others? I agree with your understanding of women in the church. I believe women can and should be free to do whatever God calls them to do.
Hi Ashley,
That is an excellent question. When I use the word “leader” I don’t mean senior pastor; I use it to mean anyone with an influential and authoritative Ephesians 4:11 ministry. The church in Caesarea, for example, had Philip the evangelist and his four prophesying daughters who all exercised their ministries, plus (presumably) others.
Having said that the contents of 2 John, the verses about Priscilla and Nympha do indicate that they were people recognised as having a responsibility for the church that met in their homes.
I agree that ministry was shared in the very early church. The idea of a single bishop/overseer emerged at the end of the first century. The responsibility of overseers and elders at that stage may have been for the several house churches in a city.
I thought about this too, what if they just offered the facility? Well in that case who is the real leader/pastor? Paul should definitely mention that guy too, and call it that guy’s church. And if Nympha is really spiritually insignificant, if I were Paul I would simply say “greet the church that meets at Nympha’s house”. Also in my own experience with the many bible study groups I have been to, in most cases the person that opens their home is also the one that teaches.
A good look at this is the various women leaders of the Celtic churches from the 5th to 12th centuries. Hild, Ita, Brigid, etc. all of them were leaders, teachers, soul friends, and more of both men and women in their monasteries and communities. It wasn’t until after the Roman view won out at Whitby did the view that women could no longer lead slowly start to change in those churches.
This is wonderful, thank you!
What do you have to say about Isaiah 3:12?
This is a great question. I started answering it, but my response got too long.
I plan on giving my answer tomorrow (Australian time) in the form of a new post/article. I’ll give you the link then.
Hi, here is a link to my answer of your question:
https://margmowczko.com/equality-and-gender-issues/isaiah-3_12-women-leaders/
Not to offend women, but there is grave error here. Yes, I am a man, and a servant of God. Women are NOT to teach, NOR to hold authority over a man. It is also made clear that Christ is the head of man, and a man is the head of a woman. It is easy to be led astray by poor translations of the Bible and other Scriptures that for one reason or another are not included in the Bible. The Didache and The Didascalia also make clear that ALL leadership, teaching, evangelizing, et cetera is performed by men. Man was made from the earth, woman was made FROM man to be his helper. ALL “pieces” of the “jigsaw picture” of Scripture must fit, not simply erroneous speculative Scripture translations.
Hi Richard,
Didache and Didascalia
The Didache (circa 100) and the Didascalia (200-250) make it clear that certain leadership positions and roles are for men only. (The Didascalia also makes a distinction between male and female deacons.)
Importantly, the Didache and the Didascalia are not part of the Bible. (And the Didascalia falls way outside of the New Testament period, the focus of this article.) Thankfully most churches do not regard the Didascalia as a relevant manual for church use today. The New Testament is part of the Bible, and it makes no claim that bishops (episkopoi) deacons (diakonoi), or elders, are roles for men only.
1 Timothy 2:12
The structure of 1 Timothy 2:12 combines “to teach” with authentein (in a hendiadys) so that the meanings are blended. In no way do I advocate for a woman to teach anyone in this way. The prohibition in 1 Timothy 2:12 does not prohibit a woman from teaching in a wholesome, godly manner.
A correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12 does not apply to Priscilla’s teaching of Apollos, or to Anna’s preaching in the temple to those who were waiting for the redemption of Jerusalem, or to the ministry of Philip’s daughters, or to Huldah, for just a few examples. There are more examples of godly Bible women who led, guided, advised, and taught men here.
A correct understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12 does not apply to most capable Christian woman today. There are several aspects of 1 Timothy 2:12 which must be factored into interpreting this verse. Here are six of them.
The First Woman as Helper
Yes, the first woman was made to help the first man whose only apparent problem was that he was alone; this is articulated by God himself: “It’s not good that the human is alone. I will make him a helper that is perfect for him” (Gen. 2:18 CEB). The woman solved this problem by being made to be an equal counterpart (kenegdo) and not his auxiliary. She solved the problem just showing up.
Paul addresses the faulty idea that women were created to unilaterally help men (which he first states or quotes in 1 Corinthians 11:8-9) with: “Nevertheless (or, except that), in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God” (1 Cor. 11:11-12 NIV).
We all need each other. We all are meant to love and serve one another. We all are to help each other whenever and wherever we can. Women are to help women and men, girls and boys. Men are to help women and men, girls and boys. Wives are to help their husbands, husbands are to help their wives. More on this here.
Richard, there are many pieces you have not included in your jigsaw. One piece that is missing is the example of the ministries of actual women mentioned in the New Testament and how Paul spoke about them. Another piece is the social dynamics of the New Creation which we are already a part of (e.g., 2 Cor. 5:16-17; Gal. 3:26-28; cf. Gen. 1:26-28).
So where is the error in my article? Which sentence is incorrect?
“But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” 1 Timothy 2:12 Was Paul going against God to make such a statement? God had already chosen women like Deborah and Miriam to be his prophets (Miriam had the same title as Aaron)? No; because Paul already had women like Lydia, Priscilla, Junia, and Phoebe leading in churches and he mentioned their names equally with men. The same Paul who wrote in Galatians 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” You could say he is just talking about unity, but why would he choose the hierarchical words of “slave” and “free” if he wasn’t trying to bring about equality?
It makes me wonder why the word for “authority” (authentein) is only used this one time in the Bible unless you count the apocrypha and there, it is a violent act like murder, suicide, or human sacrifices. Even Strong’s admits that it doesn’t really know what authentein means. Makes me wonder why Paul wouldn’t just use the word exousia like he does ALL other THIRTY-TWO TIMES when he talks about authority!! Wait; grasp that. Paul has a word he uses for “authority” and he deviates from that only once? Are you sure that means what you think it means? Strong’s isn’t sure so maybe you aren’t so sure either.
Perhaps Paul wasn’t talking about authority at all. Perhaps Paul was talking about something else entirely. 1 Timothy was written to the church of Ephesus. It just takes a small scroll through Google to see the history of the place. That was a mess. Ephesus was where Artemis was the primary god worshipped. Artemis was a man-hater and this was one of the few places where I would have rather been a woman in ancient times because things weren’t going well for men. If a woman got pregnant, some feared that Artemis would kill the woman and the child at birth (since she was also the goddess of midwifery) so they would try to get their husbands to appease Artemis through various mutilations to their genitals because if she or the baby died in childbirth, they would often drag the man out of his house and emasculate him or kill him. 1 Timothy 2:12 was telling the Ephesian women to stop telling men to cut their penis to appease Artemis.
1 Timothy 2:12 and the surrounding verses in context: A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
Back to the teachings of the day: There was a Gnostic variation of the creation story where Eve became the hero for accepting the fruit for divine enlightenment and the serpent was a messenger of God. Paul was reminding these women the true nature of the story and that women do still need men because, although all men come from women, Eve came from Adam. As for the childbearing thing, well, we go back to the teachings of Artemis and how men often suffered if a child died during birth. Paul was reminding these people that childbirth without their Artemis practices would be an exercise of their faith and could be an avenue with which to be saved from these heinous practices that were prisons for them all.
So, to paraphrase the verse: “Women, you are getting too high and mighty and you need to gain some humility and submit also to the teaching of men fully without trying to commandeer the conversation. Don’t be teaching these men that they need to go and mutilate their genitals if they care for you and your unborn child for fear of Artemis. You are twisting the stories and getting them wrong to elevate yourselves. Remember, that you didn’t receive divine enlightenment from taking the fruit; you were deceived and don’t be forgetting how it was you who messed up first. Instead of pushing your men to hurt themselves, instead give your fears to God through your pregnancy and accept this opportunity to put your faith into action and really learn to trust God. Now, be faithful and behave lovingly. And please, women of Ephesus, learn some self-control!!”
Thanks for your comments, Tifani.
I have some very different views of the first-century Artemis of Ephesus. In case you’re interested, I’ve written about this goddess here and here, and about women in the cults of Ephesus here.
Could you please link to any ancient sources that relate this idea?: “they would try to get their husbands to appease Artemis through various mutilations to their genitals because if she or the baby died in childbirth, they would often drag the man out of his house and emasculate him or kill him.”
I’ve read widely about the Ephesian Artemis in ancient (and modern) sources and I have never come across anything that comes close to this idea.
I’ve also written about authentein. There’s a long article on the word here, and there’s a very short article on it here. And my overall interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-15, which is different to yours, is here.
(I’ve removed some of your inflammatory words. Sorry.)
Interesting discussions,
a few thoughts from someone who has been on both sides of this issue. Marg, I notice that you reference extra Biblical sources to support your points, but when others do so, you discredit their use as, well, outside of scripture, even when they were early church documents. So I think for intellectual integrity, you need to either not use those in your side of the debate, or you need to honestly consider them when others bring them to bear.
Also, and I have never really heard a good rebuttal to this: if Jesus sets right the fall by establishing women in leadership alongside men, why were all 12 Apostles men? He certainly did not cave to societal taboos regarding women such as hanging out with prostitutes, defending women caught in sin etc. And He certainly overturned much of the Jewish ceremonial tradition. So, Why, in your opinion, did Jesus not institute official female leadership among his immediate followers. I know there were women who were disciples, but why no apostles?
Thanks for this article and the thoughtfulness involved.
Hi Corey,
I’ll look into your point about extra-Biblical sources. I do use extra-biblical material as supporting information fairly frequently. But I don’t give these sources the same credence as the New Testament, not even close, especially as writers, such as Tertullian and Jerome, can say quite different things about women depending on the point being made at any particular time.
Most church fathers says some terrible things about women, so it is surprising when they actually says something affirming about women ministers. I don’t wish to misrepresent the church fathers, however; and I certainly don’t want it to appear that I mostly agree with them. The church fathers and I are not in broad agreement. But inconsistency is not a good thing. Thanks for the heads-up. Have you got an example of this?
As for the Twelve, I can’t think of a single verse where Jesus tells the Twelve they are to be “leaders”. Rather, eleven of them were to be witnesses and disciples-makers of all nations (not just of fellow Jews). Did Jesus call Judas Iscariot (one of the Twelve) to be a leader? Peter and John did have leadership roles, but to say that Jesus called the Twelve as a way of establishing some kind of leadership structure, let alone a paradigm of male-only leadership for all time, is problematic.
I’ve written about Jesus’s and the unique position of the Twelve here. Also, calling the Twelve, or Eleven, “apostles” may be a late development. More on this in endnote 1 here.
Marg,
Thanks for your response. My point about extra Biblical material is that you seem to credit it for your interpretations and to support your understanding such as “By all accounts . . . ” I include the extra-biblical accounts of Eusebius, who also quoted Papias, and I include the observations of E. Earle Ellis.”
and discredit it because it is not in the Bible when it disagrees with you “Importantly, the Didache and the Didascalia are not part of the Bible. ”
I think you need to give more substance to why you credit some sources as more legitimate than others besides the fact that you agree with them.
As for the Apostles, I do believe Jesus said to them that “All authority” has been given to them. To say that they were disciples only and did not become teachers, leaders, evangelists all wrapped up in an Apostolic ministry is not historically accurate.
It is obvious that it was 11 and one traitor, who was replaced. But you have not answered the question. If Jesus really wanted to establish leadership in this was for women, why did he not have a co-ed team? I know that beyond the 12 there were many women who were followers, disciples, who were loyal to the core, so why are these 12 still set apart and only male?
Over my back and forth on this issue over the years, this has been a very compelling argument.
I think the statement “by all accounts” is perfectly valid. I haven’t come across any account that discredits the four women or their ministry in any way. But I don’t give the extra-biblical accounts the same weight as the biblical texts. “All accounts” is part of a factual statement.
The Didache is a useful document for understanding life in certain Christian communities. (There was a variety of ways churches organised ministry and the eucharist, etc.) I don’t discredit the Didache, in fact I quote from it and acknowledge that in some communities, in fact, only men could be leaders. Nevertheless, I also state that the New Testament makes no such statements about only men being leaders. I think I have explained my use of the Didache fairly, considering it’s a short article.
There are many ancient documents and modern scholars that, I believe, do not agree 100% with the message of the New Testament and the ideals that Jesus and Paul wrote about. But that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t use them when they shed light on the situation of the early church. Eusebius’ Church History and the Didache are valuable documents which shed a lot of light on the goings on in the early church. Are you suggesting I shouldn’t use any material other than the Bible itself? Or only material I agree with 100%?
I think my use of extra-biblical material in the article is fair and reasonable.
Hey Marg,
The point about the didache was is your response to Richard. It seems that you were saying it was not a valid clarifier of Scripture because it was outside of scripture. I do believe extra biblical texts are informative and help with contextual and cultural understandings.
Any thoughts on why none of the 12 were female? I don’t think you can honestly say they were original authorities after Jesus in the early church.
We had a great discussion in my small group tonight about 2 Tim and your thoughts in this article were helpful.
Ah, I thought you might have seen me use the Didache in another article. I don’t consider the Didache as a clarifier of scripture, not at all, in fact; but it does reveal customs of some (Syrian?) Christian communities in the first, possibly second, century.
I mention a few reasons why Jesus chose twelve Jewish men to be his first disciples and witnesses in an article here.
Some women were “authorities” in the very early church (after Jesus), women such as Jesus’ mother, Mary Magdalene, and Mary and Martha of Bethany. Considering their close relationships and their history with Jesus, their words and their ministry would have been taken very seriously. Luke certainly took the testimony of women seriously and included several accounts of women in his gospel.
Some women were “authorities” in churches and missions founded by Paul, women such as Priscilla and Lydia who were both personally taught by Paul and, in Lydia’s case, baptised by Paul. I suspect that Lydia was the first person to care for the fledgling church at Philippi which met in her home. If not Lydia, who? Other New Testament women also cared for (i.e. “pastored” or “supervised”) congregations which met in their homes.
In the early church, the testimony of witnesses was highly valued and seen as authoritative (cf. Acts 13:30-31). These testimonies formed oral traditions that would later be written down and included in the four Gospels.
Papias, writing in early second century, preferred the “living word” (i.e., “the oral tradition”) to the written Gospels. He mentions several men’s names but also uses the phrase “any other of the Lord’s disciples” when he says, “For I imagined that what was to be got from books was not so profitable to me as what came from the living and abiding voice.” Papias also mentions the testimony of the daughters of Philip the apostle. (Source)
There is no doubt that most leaders or “authorities” in the very early church were men, but some were women.
Corey,
I’ve thought about your suggestion that I have used early historical accounts of Philip’s daughters and the Didache inconsistenty. I’ve come to the conclusion that, in fact, I use them very consistently.
I regard Eusebius (for example) and the author(s) of the Didache as accurately conveying information as they saw it. And, as such, they provide valuable, historical information.
In comparison, the apocryphal acts of the various apostles are mostly fiction, and I suspect Epiphanius and Tertullian use their rhetoric so forcibly that they exaggerate their own opinions.
While Eusebius and the author(s) of the Didache represent their views honestly, their writings are not holy scripture, and I think they get some things wrong. I use neither sources to clarify scripture. I use them as valuable historical documents.
Isiah 3:12 Youths oppress my people, women rule over them.
In the well run world men of wisdom rule the children (judicial principle), women oppress the children (legistative movement), but when the world turns upside down women rule and children oppress and the men are slaves. Women are unfit to rule because they lack the delibrative authority and so yield to the nonsense legislative movement of thier wayward children creating a world of progressive political correctness- eg Angela Merkel overturns our traditions and Mark Zuckerberg sets out agenda. But how could the women, knowing nothing, be so unfaitful? But imagining that the bible is old fashioned, and the life of the Ancients was antideluvian, and we moderns know more than them about human nature, when in truth we are utterly ignorant and wicked.
Does the Hebrew of Isaiah 3:12 say something like “Youths oppress my people, women rule over them”? The Bible Paul used doesn’t say this in Isaiah 3:12.
https://margmowczko.com/isaiah-3_12-women-leaders/
I am in no way saying that women, or men, should rule over their fellow brothers or sisters in Christ. This kind of leadership is the opposite of what Jesus wanted in the community of his followers.
https://margmowczko.com/jesus-teaching-on-leadership-and-community-in-matthews-gospel/
https://margmowczko.com/authority-in-the-church/
1 Timothy 2: 11-14 couldn’t be clearer. A woman should not teach a man in spiritual matters nor have spiritual authority over him.
It is important to note a couple of things from this passage:
a – Paul’s reason for this stance is that “Adam was created first” (v.13), so this is not a matter of any human hierarchy or human culture that developed over time. Paul is saying that this is God’s established hierarchy right from the formation of Adam, ie even before the fall.
b – Paul isn’t writing to a particular Church with a particular culture, about a specific situation. He is writing to Timothy about general guidelines for church leadership and structure of the church as a whole. That is the wider context of the book of 1 Timothy.
I have studied apologists for both sides of this argument, one thing always stands out to me:
– Those against women in ministry have several clear Scriptures to back up their stance.
– Those for women in ministry tend to rely heavily on “convictions” and “feelings”.
The few people who do try to cite Scripture in defence of women in ministry, either do so out of context – eg Galatians 3:28 – which is about equality in salvation. We are all equal heirs under the same promise (v29). This has nothing to do with church leadership, or spiritual authority. Paul can’t possibly intend it to mean that either, because then it would directly contradict 1 Timothy 2, and eg 1 Corinthians 11:3, Ephesians 5:22-23 – which makes it clear a husband is spiritual head of the family/household.
Or else they provide brief one-off citations as supposed examples of women in church leadership.
To deal with each of your examples in turn:
Philip’s daughters (Acts 21:9) – states that they were prophetesses, not church leaders. Never mentioned again.
Priscilla (Acts 18:26; Rom. 16:3-5, etc.) – states that she was a co-worker in Christ, not a church leader.
Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2) – states that she was a deacon (Greek: diakonos = servant, helper), we have no idea what that role actually involved. Never mentioned again.
Junia (Rom. 16:7) – states that she (also possibly Junius = “he”) was an apostle (Greek: apostolos = message carrier, ambassador), we have no idea what her/his role actually involved. We are all apostles in bearing the gospel to others.
Chloe (1 Cor. 1:11) – refers to her household. No mention of her role or that she was a leader. Never mentioned again.
Euodia and Syntyche (Phil. 4:2-3) – co-workers in Christ, who clearly have fallen out with each other over something. No mention of their roles. Never mentioned again.
Nympha (Col. 4:15) – hosted church meetings in her house. Doesn’t state that she led those meetings, she could have merely provided the venue. Never mentioned again.
Apphia (Phlm. 2) – referred to as “our sister” only. Never mentioned again.
“the chosen lady” (2 John 1), “the chosen sister” (2 John 13) – is merely referred to as a chosen sister in Christ, and who is the original recipient of this letter.
Lydia (Acts 16:40) – trader in cloth (v.14), a businesswoman perhaps, worshiper of God (v.14). No reference she led a church.
—–
Here is a key point for you to ponder on. Let’s say you were correct in your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:11-14 et al. That would mean that all of the Church leaders from every denomination throughout Church history for over 1900 years, who have never allowed Church leaders in any capacity to be female, were all spiritually misguided. That is essentially what you are saying. They will have studied the same passages of scripture that you have, prayed about it, debated it and sought the Spirit’s guidance on it. And they all reached a completely different conclusion to you under the inspiration of the Spirit. For over 1900 years.
It is only since Western culture has spiritually fallen by the wayside, and we have been overtaken by secular and humanist values since around the 1960s, that Churches have started to follow secular society and are now trying to re-interpret the Bible about the role of women in ministry.
I urge you to seriously and prayerfully consider this key point.
To repeat: The Church for 1900 years guided by the Spirit had one sole interpretation on women in ministry. The change in the interpretation has only come about when society has fallen away from biblical values, and become much more secular and humanist in its outlook – and the church is now trying to move towards that position to try and be relevant to secular society. I know which of those two convictions I would trust a great deal more.
To clarify, I don’t judge you. You are free to believe what you want, it is between you and God – you will account to Him alone for your actions. I am merely warning you that there is a very real danger you are in grave error in your interpretation. It states throughout scripture that in the last days even the elect might be led astray. It is my belief that is precisely what we are witnessing.
Please understand that if you do reply, I will not read it – as I don’t believe it is appropriate for you to teach me in spiritual matters.
Actually, 1 Timothy 2:12 is not as clear as you seem to indicate.
https://margmowczko.com/1-timothy-212-not-as-clear/
And you have misunderstood why Paul gave summary statements of Genesis 2 and 3 in 1 Timothy 2:13-14.
https://margmowczko.com/1-timothy-212-not-as-clear-2/
Nevertheless, I believe 1 Timothy 2:12 means exactly what it says. Paul is telling Timothy that he is not allowing a woman/wife to teach or to bully a man/husband . . .
Anyway, almost everyone I’ve quoted from in this article is a man, so I wouldn’t let it bother you that you read this article.
So, do you skip over the words, teachings, and prophecies of Miriam (Exo. 15:20-21), Deborah (Judg. 5:1ff), Hannah (1 Sam. 2:1ff), Abigail (1 Sam. 25:28-31), King Lemuel’s Mother (Prov. 31:1–9), Mary (Luke 1:46ff) and Elizabeth (Luke 1:41ff)?
Thankfully, many sensible men in the Bible listened to the advice of godly women, and they benefitted from it.
https://margmowczko.com/created-order-1-timothy-212/
You won’t listen to God’s wisdom from women, nor read Marg’s response? You’re really missing out on God’s blessings.
This reminds me of people who are atheist who argue about God. If God doesn’t exist why/what are you arguing? If she shouldn’t be teaching why are you reading and addressing her points. I hope you accidentally learn something new. More importantly, I hope your heart is changed even though you are “nice” about misogyny. Let’s stop propping up things that flow from the curse calling it the Kingdom of God.
WOW! The arrogance is astounding!!!
Yes, he speaks, presumably so that I will listen. But he cautions that if I speak, he will not listen in case he learns something from a woman. Clearly, he does not have the wisdom of King Lemuel or of David or of the many other men who have heeded the words of sensible and godly women.
It reminds me of what Origen has said, “Men should not sit and listen to a woman . . . even if she says admirable things, or even saintly things, that is of little consequence, since it came from the mouth of a woman.”
Fragments on 1 Corinthians
These misguided men forget that God gives women words to speak. Jesus told Mary Magdalene to speak to the disciples and deliver an amazing message. Sadly the disciples seem to have had a similar attitude as we see here. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit continues to give women words to speak (Acts 2:17-18).
We will not be silenced by men and women who have a skewed view of the value of women because of a misunderstanding and a faulty interpretation of one Bible verse. If anything, these dumb comments spur us on.
I was thinking about my post today, and must confess originally curiosity got the better of me and I was interested to see if there were any responses. However, since then I feel let to the Spirit to specifically respond to my original message, because I believe the intention behind it has been misinterpreted by those who have read it and commented on it – and I believe the message is meant to be of benefit to those who have replied to me, if it is accepted as such with a willing heart and an open mind.
I haven’t read any of the direct links which refer to further teaching by Marg, as I believe direct teaching by her to me would be wrong, but the general comments were interesting. Here are my thoughts, which I have prayed over and asked the Spirit to guide me with this response:
Tim: The key thing to note is the guidance under Romans 14 – and that each believer should follow their own convictions in the Spirit. Clearly it would not be right for me to receive teaching from a woman, if I have a genuine conviction in my spirit that this is wrong. You might be correct that I could be missing out (if I am wrong), but then God could work within that and redirect me – he did so spectacularly with St Paul! I’m particularly convinced of this, as I continually pray for wisdom and guidance, and specifically for spiritual redirection if my interpretation is wrong. I also prayed about my response to Marg, and for redirection on this issue if I am in error. So I think I’m covered, but bless you for your concern. It was the most helpful of all the comments.
Nadine: I agree with your point about atheists, but I don’t think it is comparable here. I’m merely presenting the Scriptures in order to challenge what I believe to be an erroneous interpretation. This is a sound principle, as demonstrated by the Bereans in Acts 17:11. My heart is for the Word of God and what it actually states. Was your hope for me to have a change of heart directed by the Spirit through prayer, or merely under your own authority? Also I don’t believe that the different roles of men and women were as a result of the curse. The reasons Paul gives for his teaching in 1 Timothy 2: 11-14 relate to before the fall and before the curse (read it – he talks about Adam being created first, so this is nothing to do with the fallen order). Also, Adam named “woman” before the fall and the curse, he was put in that position of authority right from the beginning. Let he who has ears…
Lyricolaurie: No arrogance intended. I specifically prayed to be guided by the Spirit, and if it was God’s will to challenge error that He would speak through my words – fallen though they might be. Did you pray before your reply to discern if I was speaking from a position of arrogance, or do you accuse me of this through your own authority? Did you pray for greater clarity, if your original interpretation about me was wrong? Will you do so now?
Marg: Your responses redirecting me to other articles written by yourself will not assist me. I have stated my position as I believe in my conviction through the Spirit, which precludes me reading articles written by you explaining the scriptures to me. Might I suggest a better way to respond to me might have been to redirect me to a male theologian who teaches/writes on similar topics, if you are genuinely of the spiritual conviction that I am wrong and you wish me to discover the truth on my own spiritual journey? If I am wrong I want to be redirected, and God needs to meet me where I am at – not where you are at. I pray this over myself all the time.
Did you pray about this before your response to me, or did you write all of that in your own authority? I think if you had prayed about it beforehand, your response would have been very different – and would have been relevant to me spiritually. Having prayed about it I believe the Spirit is telling me your response was not out of love, or seeking the will of the Spirit – but that of defensiveness and assumption about me. If you are challenged by my words, then I suggest to you that I am merely the conduit. You are answerable to God, not me. I urge you to prayerfully consider the source of my words, and whether it is God’s intention that you should heed them.
You made an interesting comment: “Anyway, almost everyone I’ve quoted from in this article is a man, so I wouldn’t let it bother you that you read this article. ” I am not sure of your meaning here. To be clear, when I originally read your article, I don’t believe that to have been wrong. It is all about the intention. I don’t know the reasons why you wrote the article. Maybe you didn’t intend to teach other men about spiritual matters when you penned it. You may have intended it only for women, and I just happened to come across your article when I was researching Junia/Junius online a few weeks ago. There is nothing wrong with that.
My closing comments were merely from the perspective that if you replied to me specifically teaching and explaining to me directly about these spiritual matters directly, then there is clear intention to teach/guide me. It is not a blog with a wide non-specific audience, you would be responding directly to me. This is quite different.
Also just to clarify it doesn’t bother me, I only intended to convey that I wouldn’t read any response that attempted to teach me because I believe for you to teach me would be sinful, and I didn’t want to lead you into sin. That was genuinely my rationale, so it is interesting everyone who has commented on this board failed to recognise my actual motives, and I can only put that down to failure to seek the Spirit before responding to me.
You talk of men heeding the words of godly women in the Bible. This is ambiguous. To be clear, I don’t say that women cannot be national leaders (Deborah), or prophetesses (Huldah [OT], Anna [NT]), or disciples carrying a message or word of knowledge (Mary Magdalene). None of these roles are prohibited by scripture for women. God could give a word of knowledge to a woman for me, and I would heed it – I have no problem with that. The only roles I see specifically prohibited in scripture are those of taking spiritual authority over and teaching a man. That is specifically disallowed.
However, I don’t believe God would use a woman to teach me directly from the Bible – because I believe that directly contradicts God’s word, so God wouldn’t use that as a mechanism to lead me by.
If you don’t understand why it is disallowed, then I’m sure Adam and Eve felt a similar way about the tree of knowledge of good and evil. “Why should that be disallowed? There doesn’t seem any good reason for it.” And then don’t forget Satan’s clever trick of: “Did God really say that?” I ask the same of you Marg, are you in danger of writing online articles along the lines of “Did God really say that women can’t teach men and take spiritual authority over them?” From my perspective it sounds dangerously like this is what you are doing. My response is: YES! God does really say this, through Paul, quite clearly.
Christ prays in Matthew 11:25 – “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.”
I tend to find the simplest explanation of Scripture ought to be the most accurate interpretation on this basis. If anyone has to refer to early Christian scholars, and unpick possible alternate meanings for the Greek, and read a lot of background into a Scripture which isn’t actually stated in the text, then I am of the opinion that person is possibly not really approaching Scripture in a way such that it is being “revealed to them as it would be to little children”.
The apostles did not need a theology degree to properly understand the word of God. No-one does! You just have to read what it actually says and listen with the heart of a child.
You mention Lemuel and David, which is interesting. In Proverbs 31, Lemuel (whoever he was – as we know next to nothing about him) could well have been instructed in those ways by his mother as a child for all we know. Plus none of those teachings to Lemuel are from scripture, they are just general observations about life. Also, be careful since just because someone does something in the Bible (even a godly person) doesn’t make it right. The only way to discern what is right is by reading what the Scriptures state. David married multiple women – this doesn’t make it right, nor should it be used as a justification for polygamy.
Finally, your interpretation of my message and assumptions about me seem to be far away from the truth. The reasons you suggest in your reply were not at all my intention, making me all the more convinced you did not pray about it nor seek the wisdom of the Spirit before your reply to me – otherwise the Spirit would have shown you this.
Our Church undertook a long-term exercise to determine the spiritual gifts of our members. My strongest gifts were identified to be:
– Spiritual Discernment
– Giving
– Knowledge
Before you accuse me of lacking wisdom and being misguided, please know that I specifically prayed for the wisdom of the Spirit over my replies to you, and that discernment and knowledge were determined to be my strongest spiritual gifts when we specifically sought to identify these gifts as a Church through the Spirit.
I challenge you right now, through the Spirit, that you did not pray about your responses to me when you wrote them. You did not seek the wisdom and guidance of the Spirit, and that you wrote your reply in entirely your own authority.
Am I right? There is no way I could know that, other than through the Spirit.
In closing, the one thing I agree you are correct about is you should not be silenced by mere men and women. You can dismiss me as a person by all means; I am just a man – and if these words are just my own then they will burn up before the white throne of judgment. The Spirit will also make it clear to you if this message is not from God, if you pray about it.
However, I believe my comments are cloaked in the authority of God through the Spirit, and meant specifically for you at this time. Have you prayed about it, and sought the guidance of the Spirit if my words are from God? Honestly, have you?
I am sure you are aware already, but always be mindful that it is one thing to be misguided about something personally. It is quite another to write articles that are read by other Christians and lead them to make spiritual decisions based on what you write. If somebody reading your articles is led into spiritual error, then you will be held severely accountable.
Maybe I am blunt and direct, but then so were Jeremiah and John the Baptist. Indeed, so was Jesus to the Pharisees (the misguided spiritual teachers of his day). I genuinely believe I have been called to be your Spiritual Watchman and challenge you on this issue – and to a lesser extent those who read your blog and have commented. My job is done. I have warned you, and followed it up, all under what I believe to be the guidance of the Spirit. What you do with the information is now between you and God.
God bless you Marg, I pray right now that God gives you clarity in this matter so you can continue to work for the Kingdom under His specific calling on your life – in line with His word.
You are severely mistaken, CE, you are not called to be my spiritual watchman. How can you watch me when you choose not to read my words?
Why would I listen to a total stranger who clearly doesn’t know me at all when I have a husband, pastors and godly friends and family who do know me?
And why would I listen to a total stranger who likens himself to Jeremiah and John the Baptist and calls themselves “Christos”? That would be loopy.
You have a too high opinion of yourself and it is misguided, even delusional. I won’t be ‘approving’ any more of your comments.
I wonder why these women mentioned in Scripture weren’t mentioned very often. Was it patriarchy? Was it the context of the day? Your response appears to remain steadfast in that dated mode. Paul, when writing to the Galatians, spoke of we are all one in Christ. It would then be strange that Paul would change his mind when writing to Timothy about the Ephesians unless it was very specific to that audience, if Paul actually wrote that letter in the first place.
What may be true is that you and Marg have different interpretations of Scripture, but one is prepared to listen and debate.
Blessings
A Deacon in the Methodist Church
The fact that so many women are mentioned at all is wonderful. (Most of the Twelve Apostles are never mentioned again by name after the Gospels.)
Priscilla is mentioned quite a few times. I love that in Paul’s list of greetings to members of the church at Rome given in the last chapter of Romans, a list which includes 26 named individuals, Priscilla is listed first (Rom. 16:3-5). First! This seems to indicate that Priscilla was a leader in the church at Rome.
And Philip’s Prophesying Daughters were famous in the early church. Several early church documents mention them.